Adam MARTYNIYK: Democracy Can Not Be Equal for Everyone

First Vice – chairman of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine
Adam Martyniyk was elected Head of the Organizing Committee for Session holding. He expressed his thoughts to the «Viche»
journalists which we propose to the attention of our readers. This is the analysis of Ukraine's relationship with this international
organization and with its member states which unveils the targets of our state as an organizer of the 16th Annual Session.

– Adam Ivanovich, since January 1992 Ukraine has been a full member of the Parliamentary Assembly. Its aim was to solve painful for public problems of human trafficking, refugees and forced migrants, return and settlement of the Tatars of Crimea. But none of the mentioned issues has been solved. Does the OSCE have real instruments for influencing these processes?

– The point is that the OSCE resolutions are adopted on the basis of consensus and are not indispensable from juridical point of view. We can surely speak about their political value. Still the objects of these resolutions, states or other conflicting parties, e.g. territorial formations with all features of national identity but not recognized on the international level and mentioned at the documents of the Organization may act at their own discretion. It is even hard to adopt a resolution when it goes about consensus.

Eventually only those resolutions are implemented into life which are of interest for big countries. During Yugoslavia dissolution period everything was «on high level». You can see even now how eagerly Kosovo, the historical heart of the people, is being reft from Serbia. Besides when speaking of concrete Ukrainian problems, such as settlement of the Tatars of Crimea, we face economical and financial problems rather than the political ones. The OSCE has rather discreet budget of about 170 million Euros so we could not count on assistance from Vienna especially taking into account that the Chairman and the Secretary General have numerous secretariats and the Organization itself, besides headquarters in the capital of Austria has its representatives in The Hague, Geneva, Warsaw and Copenhagen. Its secretariat numbers 370 officers plus 3500 more officers work at the so called field missions. Thus only election monitoring missions may be hardly paid for. We know how many guests come to Ukraine for elections and during crises periods: and the number grows with each passing year.

Thus we should deal with our troubles first of all on our own. Let's speak of human trafficking. Recently the USA State Department has equated Ukraine to Kuwait and Bahrain based on this index. I sure have nothing against these respected and it's worth nothing wealthy countries. But after all we should note that the attitude to human trafficking in the orthodox tradition culture is different and we should have had a better state of things. We are facing our problems because some representatives of our authority are too absorbed into the processes of creating artificial crises, undermining Ukrainian statehood that's why they do not have enough time to ponder over improvement of public life on humanistic grounds.

– Ukraine participates in almost 100 international organizations. How can we raise nominally speaking «coefficient of efficiency» of international cooperation? Ukraine is not still widely known in the world and its position is often not taken into account.

– I will start with reiterating that Ukraine is already widely known for today but unfortunately not from the side we would like it to. It would be great if the world knew about our high culture, rich history, aero-cosmic industry etc. But people mostly know that Ukraine is a country with a permanent political crisis, corruption of high authorities, low living standards and the largest supplier of low-paid manpower in Europe to the international labour market. Turkey has been once called a «big sick» of Europe. I'm afraid that we can become that «sick» soon. And the corresponding resolutions of the OSCE will follow, like in Yugoslavia, which for this time I can assure you will be implemented into life. So we should bring order to our own home as fast as possible and do not risk Ukrainian nationhood.

You turned to a really painful problem of international cooperation efficiency. It is efficient when all its participants observe the international law. When one country neglects it and declare the whole world the area for its strategic and national interests no one can count on efficiency.

I think we should listen to China, Russia, India, Brazil and some other countries which consider that the present world order needs to be changed, that we should turn to multi-polar world.

I don't want to overload you with figures but some of them should be mentioned here. The gap in GDP per person between the post-industrial world and the rest of the world came up to almost 16 thousand dollars and increased three times compared to that in 1960. As a result of this the wealthy fifth part of mankind appropriates 60 times more wealth than the poor part. On the other side if in 1974 the total amount of foreign debt of the developing countries was 135 milliard dollars now it exceeds 2 billion dollars. This all is the result of monopoly of one country.

At the same time the «G8» changed the UN and turned to an assembly of fat cats that decide how to «improve» the life of mice. Such «cooperation» we do have for today. Russia though can hardly be referred to as a «fat» but this does not change the point.

I remember Vladimir Putin said once that the USSR collapse became the biggest geopolitical disaster in the world. I can agree with him. It was a disaster not only for the peoples of the USSR but for the whole mankind. Sure after that one country obtained an opportunity to inoculate democracy as it understands it and by those measures it liked. In one case – blackmailing and arms' twisting in the other – «smart» bombs and rockets, direct occupation.

Peoples have unalienable right to live the way they want to. Democracy is sure a good thing. But it can not be similar-modeled for everyone. Everything, the landscape-climate conditions, religious and cultural traditions influence the persons' world. It is of course one thing to speak about the democracy in a country which uses huge part of energy suppliers as it likes at the expense of the rest of the world. Another thing is China where only 7 hundred square meters of soil suitable for husbandry accrue to one person. Quite other thing is Islamic countries where just like in the West in general and in our country as well society always has had superiority over an individual.

So we should go back to international law, multi-polar world and then everything will be all right with the international cooperation. Unity of the world lies in its variety and not in the dictate of one state even if it is a powerful one.

– For almost 10 years the problem of NATO expansion to the East has been discussed. It directly touches the interests of Ukraine. Deployment of Russian military bases on the territory of Ukraine makes its state even more complicated. How do you see the place our country on the geo-political world map and which role can the OSCE play in the security fortification?

– I don't really understand how the presence of Russians complicate our life. I think everything is very much the other way. Russian Black Sea Fleet in Sevastopol in my opinion guarantees us security on our southern borders. Telling the truth we de facto do not have our own fleet. Frigate «Hetman Sagaydachniy» is not a feet yet. And it is almost a proved fact that we can any moment meet challenges to our security in the South.

Yes, the President speaks a lot about the «NATO umbrella» under which we could hide from more and more firm Russia. But we know the public sentiments as well. People don't want to hide from Russia under foreign umbrellas and all sociological researches of the last years prove it. The majority of citizens of Ukraine are against entering NATO. People understand clearly who the master in NATO is. They also understand that our army which has been so uneasily standing on its feet will have to fight for the interests of this master all over the world. Nowadays it is Iraq; Afghanistan; Iran is on its way. Tomorrow other flash points will appear. Participation at someone else's ventures will do only harm to Ukraine.

Besides we should not forget that membership in NATO does not mean that we won't meet any external challenges. We can for example remember relations between Greece and Turkey which were brought to the boil many times. We can also speak of Gibraltar problem which has not been solved yet. They used to say in Madrid that Gibraltar is a splinter of colonialism. London is sure that this territory has to belong for the future to Great Britain. And so on. That is why it's better for us to keep staying out of NATO, to be out-of-block and neutral country. Later on the Verkhovna Rada will be passing the law «On Main Principles of Internal and Foreign Policy» and we will, I hope, finally make up our mind on this problem.

As for the OSCE role at the security fortification let me express a little bit unusual thought of my own. As it goes first of all about European continent logical question arise here: what does the United States of America do in Europe? In 1975 when the Organization was created there existed Soviet Union and the world was overwhelmed by confrontation Europeans had certain fears. Under such conditions the USA participation in the OSCE seemed to be justified to some extent. But since then the situation has changed radically. There's no USSR any more; the integration process on the basis of the UN is gaining momentum in Europe, next generation may be able to see the United States of Europe figuratively speaking. Therefore it is inexplicable why the USA is still the member of the OSCE. Can't Europe solve its own problems without it!? Moreover no one in Europe except for some «young Europeans» is spoiling for fighting all over the world.

The USA role in Europe seems often to be destructive. Now the question of the American PRO system deployment in Czech Republic and Poland is been under discussion. The OSCE as they say was just placed before a fact; Americans didn't consult it; the decision has bee taken in Washington and that's it. They used to say there that the PRO will change the European security; Berlin has serious doubts about that. Americans themselves have also been loosing interest in Europe, except for the rocket allocation issue. They have war in Iraq at the first place, then goes fighting against «Al-Kaida», nuclear ambitions of Iran, escalation of tension in Lebanon and the Gaza strip, economic development of China, return of Russia to the number of leading world states.

Europe? «No one in the States is thinking about it – the German newspaper Frankfurter Allgemeine wrote. – And if somebody thinks of Europe he is thinking of it as of the aim of his tourism trip and not as of a political partner.»

I think that without America's participation the OSCE would have been more capable at the security fortification issues. Especially when considering an opportunity for Europe to create its own armed forces which would collaborate with the OSCE in case of need.

– Military conflicts which burst out before the end of the Cold War and spreading of terrorism testify that the world hasn't become more safe. The OSCE participates at conflict settlement in Kosovo, Trans-Dniester area, Abkhazia and other flash points. But the influence and the efficiency of its actions are insignificant. Can this Organization balance NATO world influence and can Ukraine promote increase of the OSCE role? And to continue the question has our state its own vision of the security provision model in the world in general and in the Eastern Europe in particular?

– The OSCE is not a military political block. Therefore we shall not speak about the Organization opportunity to balance the Alliance. Another thing is that NATO should have taken note of the OSCE to the extent that the Organization, which resolutions have certain political weight, could solve many problems itself. It will happen in due course, as on the initiative of Washington NATO is more and more «absorbed» by the problems which are too far for Europeans. The situation in Europe is now not that alarming to be in need of the Alliance armed forces. It brought only grief to where they acted like e.g. in Yugoslavia.

I can not speak now of the Ukrainian state vision of the security provision model as the «Main Principles of Internal and Foreign policy» have not been adopted yet. The struggle for choosing a foreign policy course is still in progress in our country. Neither position is predominant.

 At the same time I can express my own vision. The UN must play a key role when it goes about the world though the Organization itself needs some reforming. The first thing is they need to enlarge the list of the UN Security Council members. It's hard to understand why such giants as India and Brazil aren't still its permanent-basis members. Maybe they should base themselves on the GDP amount. When a country's GDP exceeds let's say 3 billion dollars it may become a Security Council permanent member. It became customary for the «G8» to invite the leaders of the other economically mighty states to its summits. After all Mexico and Japan have great influence on the world economics. It's worth noting that the bigger part of GDP has been produced outside the «G8» contrary to the previous times.

Ukraine is sure interested in the external security fortification. That is why we belong to the countries that stand for increase of the OSCE role in solving such issues. Though, I should note, we see that the Organization often uses so called double standards. Some elections are «fair and democratic» the others somehow are «rigged and suspicious». But the very fact that we are hosting the 16th OCSE PA Session proves the Organizationis respect and consideration of our state. On the other hand holding of the session in Ukraine is a certain sign of increase of our role and influence in the OSCE.

– Adam Ivanovych, tell us how the preparation to the session is going on?

– I also should note that the Organizing Committee for the OSCE PA Session preparation which is headed by me has been working in accordance with the plan. All the necessary organizational arrangements are being fulfilled on time. Trust me there is, to put it mildly, enough amount of work as we will welcome more than thousand of participants of the session, its guests and invited people plus a large number of journalists. We even had to construct a new building in the yard of the Verkhovna Rada.

We have prepared for today the rooms for Assembly meeting, its three Committees, Standing Bureau, political groups' meetings, dual meetings etc. All this has been done basing on the standards which Vienna proposed to us. Airports, Railway Station and hotels have been prepared. Necessary print materials have been produced. The system of informing the citizens of Ukraine and the world community on the session progress has been established.

High-capacity phone and internet communications will be at the disposal of the participants of the session and the journalists. An interesting cultural program will be arranged for them. They will learn about Kyiv visiting museums and national preserves. A mirror disk «Ukraine» has been produced with an information about history, economics, science, culture and traditions of our state. The disk contains a separate chapter dedicated to the Verkhovna Rada activity. A concert of masters of art will take place in the «Ukraina» Palace. Some other humanitarian and enlightening events will be held. I even can't enumerate all of them.

Sure serious security measures have been provided for. I want to note that everything is organized in a way that the Kyivers feel no special inconvenience during the session working period.

So I can say that in spite of the circumstances inflicted by the recent political crisis we have managed to accomplish almost all the tasks for today. The representatives of the Parliamentary Assembly have recently visited Ukraine. They expressed their satisfaction with the process of preparation to the session. I am sure that Europeans will be convinced that working in Kyiv is as much comfortable, suitable and what is the most important fruitful as it is let's say in Vienna or Paris.

This is the first time we are holding such forum. Nothing of this kind seems to happen within the next 10 years as it is the only Parliamentary Assembly which holds visiting sessions. 49 countries have already confirmed their participation in the session. Armenian delegation will not come as they have just held the parliamentary election. There will be no representatives from Moldova as well. It's a little bit weird as the OSCE participates actively in the Transdniestrian conflict settlement.

– Does the Organizing Committee prepare any documents which will be used for drawing up of the final Declaration?

– According to the Rules of Procedure of the Parliamentary Assembly the hosting country should provide for organizing the forum. Draft declaration is prepared by the Secretariat General which is located in Vienna. But as far as I know there are already four draft resolutions, which will be discus-sed during the session. The problem of holodomor was brought up. But it is very complicated issue. As resolutions of the Assembly are adopted on a consensus basis there is less prospective for this issue to be promoted. Thus I would recommend not to bring up this issue for discussion. There must be a Resolution on Gender policy and a Resolution on conflicts on the post-soviet territory (Transdniestrian area, Abkhazia, Nagorny Karabakh).

Now we are actively working on our delegation composition. It is connected with the changes within the political fac-tions. The Head of our delegation Oleg Bilorus who is one of the nine vice-presidents of the Parliamentary Assembly for example has abnegated his powers as a peoples' deputy. New composition of the delegation with representatives of all factions will be approved by the Order of the Chairman of the Verkhovna Rada.

– But the opposition peoples' deputies are abnegating their powers. How then their representatives will become members of the delegation?

– Not all the oppositionists have abnegated their powers for now. There are 26 peoples' deputies in the BYUT faction. According to the Regulation 14 is a minimum quantity of people for a faction. It's almost the same situation with «Our Ukraine» faction. The so called Kinakh Group remains in the Verkhovna Rada as well as the other peoples' deputies such as Borys Bespalyi and Gennadii Udovenko. This faction has 15 people. Representatives of these factions will be by all means among the members of the delegation.

– Each political party views the state foreign policy as a sphere of its special interests. Eventually we have no integrated state position. Won't this divided opinion influence the meetings of the Parliamentary Assembly?

– It's hard to achieve unanimity. Delegation must be composed of the representatives from different parties. And there is no such another country where each political party has a different vision of foreign policy. Proclamation of neutral status shall be the way out for Ukraine. This would give an opportunity for us to defend our state from such numerous intrusions and gambles which took place in Iraq.

– Do the forum organizers count on international assistance in solving the constitutional crisis in Ukraine?

– If the elections are fair and indeed transparent the parliament is neither a country embodiment of democracy nor an indicator of its level and profoundness. Unfortunately not everybody likes democracy. This is exactly what we have been lately witnessing in Ukraine. We can see a massive offensive on our Parliament, consequently on the democracy itself. A coup attempt was arranged at the end of May. This is exactly how the events connected to the Prosecutor-General's Office, anti-constitutional decisions of the President on the National Security and Defense Council, internal security troops etc. may be regarded. The people's deputies will of course deliver their points of view to the participants of the session. But we should first of all solve our problems on our own. I think our society is mature and suspended enough to take fateful decisions. At the same time if there are relevant adices from our colleagues from other countries we should also listen to them.